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and it hits me oh my gosh this is that

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triangle you know there's explanation

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for everything that occurred in the

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rendlesham forest incident it doesn't

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involve aliens at all it was completely

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silent it comes right over our heads

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it's so a perfect science also really

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stunning in the clearing he turned over

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to my father and held his hand and he

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looked in his eyes and said we're not

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alone welcome to Podcast UFO for our

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live show we're live every wednesday at

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eight pm eastern standard time on the

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Dark Matter radio network please

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remember to visit the website podcast

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UFO calm for past episodes blogs and

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forums during the show feel free to

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participate live in our chat room and

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don't forget to Like us on our very

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active Facebook page hello and welcome

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to the show I am Martin will usher host

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well I've always striven or strived

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whatever the proper English is to have

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unique guests on the show whenever I can

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and today our guest is just that John

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glass has a PhD in sociology and

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currently teaches at Collin College as a

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professor of sociology he is a committed

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advocate of the use of the scientific

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method to discover and understand the

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properties of the material and human

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world well he's been interested in the

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UFO phenomenon since early childhood and

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he's unsure what to think about it other

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than noting the huge volumes are reports

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about this phenomenon I really have no

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idea what he and I will be talking about

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how we're going to approach the subject

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but I'm sure it will be an interesting

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show so hang in there he'll be coming up

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right after the music break before we

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speak to John however our astronomy

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segment is coming up so Andy Fleming

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what is going on this week I a mouse in

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goods it sold you this week we're going

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to go on our UFO time machine and we're

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going to go back to the Year 1178 edgy

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and something I've called impact me

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impact moon as in a crater as in a crazy

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yes indeed no triangle and the crater

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though this time I thought this fellas

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on rather nicely of course from from

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last week's podcast and and the the moon

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triangle yeah alright well let's hear it

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what's going this is actually some

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science so you Martin something people

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are gonna gonna really enjoy this one

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anyway perhaps they can help solve it

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more importantly um do you have a pair

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of binoculars Martin well I have better

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than that ever pretty nice telescope oh

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nice well obviously and listeners when

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you look at the moon through binoculars

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or a nice telescope you'll see that

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obviously it's covered with creators and

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they've been made over billions of years

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and of course I'm like the earth the

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moon doesn't have any plate tectonics so

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there's no weathering of volcanism so

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it's in pristine condition and of course

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that's like gives a history of the

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impact I mean you'll know that they

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obviously have been big impacts and

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you've reported on them on the other one

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well it wasn't it was an impact us buzz

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but the one in Russia last year well

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there's controversy on that may have

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impacted that lake yeah you know so I

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guess you'd call it a semi impact yeah

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it was like 11 11 tonnes or something

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like that when it came through the

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atmosphere so it was pretty big and of

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course we've all give ye love heard and

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listens well heard about the impact that

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wiped the dinosaurs out the Chicxulub

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crater and of course all of these get

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covered up on the earth because of all

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the weathering and everything and well

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the funny thing is that when we never

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really see any impacts on the moon do we

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I mean I I haven't seen any you mean a

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live impact alive impacts no but I know

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just just a thought here I would assume

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that the moon actually does protect us

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from getting hit by some objects

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wouldn't is that the sky reckless young

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yeah that's good I like Jupiter but you

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know it's not as big as Jupiter but yes

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it has

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so that effect so I've been doing a

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little bit of research and I found out

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that there are some medieval records

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well one in particular going back 1178

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now obviously if people in New England

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people's head of the town of Canterbury

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and plenty others now be there probably

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in ruins now but in 1178 there was a

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whole staffing of monks and the

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chronicler of the time which is somebody

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called juvies Ross a deposition that he

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took from five months and it was about

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very strong spectacle that the think

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lesueur on the lunar surface I'll just

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read it out to you ever bitten sure and

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this is what's javis said this year on

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the 18th of june when the moon a slim

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crescent first became visible a

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marvelous phenomenon was seen by several

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men who were watching it suddenly the

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upper horn of the crescent was split in

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two from the midpoint of the division a

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flaming torch sprang up spilling out a

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considerable distance fire hot coals and

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sparks you've got to listen to this in

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terms of them you know the fact this was

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in medieval middle-aged times and you

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know these were the analogies that the

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joke the body of the moon which was

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below ride like a wounded snake this

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happened a dozen times or more when the

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moon returned to normal the whole

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presence took on a blackish appearance

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you know when they when you go back you

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hear of all these stories that are quite

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spectacular so it sounds like this one

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is really turning into one something was

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going on though obviously something was

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happening yeah definitely they saw

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something and we're back in 1976 an

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astronomer from New York called a jack

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heartsong investigated in a science

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journal called meteoritic he develops a

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hypothesis

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what we just talked about was in fact a

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meteor impacting and obviously javi's is

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account at the time if true it's pretty

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much unique as there's no other account

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of such a large lunar impact it should

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have created such an event should have

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created a crater about 10 kilometers in

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diameter it should also have long

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ejector is of course to prove any sort

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of hypothesis you've got to start

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looking around for the evidence and lee

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they did find a crater in the form of

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creator that they already knew and had

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named called Giordano Bruno one thought

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comes to mind is how would they possibly

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date a crater on the moon because you

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know there's no atmospheric things to

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wear anything down and then everything

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was just like fresh and pristine there

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isn't it absolutely absolutely the only

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way the canned weller two men was

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through radiometric dating I think to do

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that we've got have a spacecraft on the

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ground you know something like Apollo or

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one of the unmanned ones as far as i

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know this created critter Giordano Bruno

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has never ever been explored by a

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robotic mission or a manned mission so

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the only other way if it's not ISO

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metric dating I think it's gone the only

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other way they can do it is to look at

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the sub craters within the main crater

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itself if the crater happened very very

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recently as in a couple of hundred years

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ago there won't be any other smaller

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crisis within the crater has any

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astronomer ever discovered a new crater

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inside say another crater or anywhere on

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the moon there oh yes it happens as far

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as i know i mean it happens all the time

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the usual dacing suggested that as i say

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it was pretty recent the system some

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more dating more analysis visually and

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that found that it's between centuries

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and ten million years old that's about

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as how approximately can vague it's like

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what's a few billion stars in the cosmos

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of the billions of billions

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but there are objections to mr. heartens

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hypothesis the original astronomer the

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earth showered by secondary the earth

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should have been showered by secondary

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meteorites from this in a fantastic

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firework display when it a comet or an

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asteroid or a big meteorite hit

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something like the moon it soars ejector

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open to space and some of that should've

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hit the Earth's atmosphere and would

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have had a wonderful meteor shower but

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we didn't apparently there's nothing in

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any of the European Chinese or out of

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Records to search for that and in 2008 a

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high-resolution image estimated it

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formed about 1 million years ago but the

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kiss isn't completely solved the lonely

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solve it when they do an edge dating of

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the impact melt rocks and of course that

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would be the next generation of lunar

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explorers there is another hypothesis

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that what the monks saw in 1178 was in

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fact a meteor exploding in the Earth's

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atmosphere Martin but there's definitely

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no doubt they did see something right

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well thank you very much Andy and well

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be talking to you next week look forward

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to it melted ok hold on for a moment

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we'll be right back with John glass and

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make sure you live listeners sign up on

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our chat room right now it's on the

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sidebar of podcast UFO com stay with us

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well it's a nice mellow tune should make

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for a nice mellow interview with John

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glass how you doing John good Thank You

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Martin thanks for joining us and you

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have a PhD and can you just kind of go

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into your line of study and then we'll

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get into how you and I connected and

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talk about your ideas on more or less a

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healthy skepticism to exploring the UFO

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phenomenon sounds good well I have a

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doctorate in sociology from the

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University of North Texas I earned that

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1995 and when I was an undergraduate I

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also studied sociology went to school in

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a small liberal arts college out in

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California and then I've worked in the

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area of substance abuse counseling grant

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writing I worked in the field of

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domestic violence for a while and then

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for the past 20 years or so I've taught

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sociology part time and then just

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recently I started teaching full time

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and I've been in my present position for

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a little over eight years I see oh now

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you and I connected you were actually

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listening to another well you were

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listening to open minds radio and you

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heard myself interviewed and when I was

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talking about the debate I had with dr.

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Seth Shostak from SETI and that's how

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you and I connected and I believe it was

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the phrase that made you engage

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something along the lines were Seth

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Shostak needed something UFO actually in

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the Smithsonian before he believed that

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they existed and let's talk about

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evidence and what your approach is too

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well first of all before we get into any

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all that I would like to find out what

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makes you interested in the topic of

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UFOs with your science background her

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well I think ever since I was a kid

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ironically I always kind of liked the

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mysterious thing

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because I thought that kind of day to

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day life was too rational and sort of

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two scientific to begin with so I always

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always enjoyed hearing about you know

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monsters and UFOs and kind of all the

273
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unusual unknown things and I remember as

274
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a kid one of the reasons I was

275
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interested in eventually becoming you

276
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know studying science and obviously in

277
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my context its behavioral science but I

278
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used to love to watch those and then I

279
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grew up in Ohio and we had monster

280
00:13:51,810 --> 00:13:50,410
movies on the afternoon and seems like

281
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there would always be some kind of mad

282
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scientist in a lab and he was you know

283
00:13:59,490 --> 00:13:56,430
twiddling dials or something or I

284
00:14:02,400 --> 00:13:59,500
remember a great movie that came out in

285
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the 1960s called it was called a crack

286
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:04,930
in the world and I don't know I was

287
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:06,730
always fascinated by my scientists and

288
00:14:09,870 --> 00:14:08,050
how they would kind of come up with

289
00:14:13,070 --> 00:14:09,880
these really cool ideas to try to change

290
00:14:16,190 --> 00:14:13,080
things or to try to you know use

291
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scientific knowledge to alter something

292
00:14:23,579 --> 00:14:20,520
and then yeah just kind of threw out my

293
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:23,589
adolescence those things always

294
00:14:29,519 --> 00:14:26,290
interested me I I guess I just was never

295
00:14:32,460 --> 00:14:29,529
satisfied with the generic explanations

296
00:14:34,500 --> 00:14:32,470
for things you know the the well that

297
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:34,510
can't be true or clearly that's not

298
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:36,730
what's happening or you know know that

299
00:14:42,210 --> 00:14:37,810
you don't you don't need to believe in

300
00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:42,220
that and then in college college can't

301
00:14:46,890 --> 00:14:45,490
open my eyes I really wasn't sure what I

302
00:14:49,019 --> 00:14:46,900
was going to study and I ran into

303
00:14:51,570 --> 00:14:49,029
sociology and it really helped me to

304
00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:51,580
understand the world a lot better and

305
00:14:56,790 --> 00:14:54,450
understand myself too and along the way

306
00:14:58,320 --> 00:14:56,800
some colleagues were some friends of

307
00:15:00,329 --> 00:14:58,330
mine and I we just became more and more

308
00:15:01,980 --> 00:15:00,339
interested in I don't know what to call

309
00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:01,990
it paranormal or you know the

310
00:15:04,980 --> 00:15:03,490
unexplained those kinds of things not

311
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:04,990
that we had in the explanations but we

312
00:15:10,430 --> 00:15:06,490
just thought that it was all pretty cool

313
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:10,440
and pretty interesting and then since I

314
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:12,850
have gone through graduate school and

315
00:15:18,750 --> 00:15:15,250
and really learned about the scientific

316
00:15:21,269 --> 00:15:18,760
methods I've come to appreciate the fact

317
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:21,279
that through the application of the

318
00:15:26,370 --> 00:15:23,410
scientific method we really can you know

319
00:15:29,250 --> 00:15:26,380
find out with some very high degree of

320
00:15:29,830 --> 00:15:29,260
confidence and precision what's going on

321
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:29,840
and why

322
00:15:34,030 --> 00:15:32,090
happen and and and then obviously

323
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:34,040
utilize that knowledge to to make things

324
00:15:38,650 --> 00:15:36,650
better and that's my orientation from a

325
00:15:41,770 --> 00:15:38,660
behavioral standpoint is to try to

326
00:15:44,770 --> 00:15:41,780
understand human behavior and and then

327
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:44,780
if possible design social organizations

328
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:46,730
or social systems or social groups that

329
00:15:49,750 --> 00:15:48,650
will you know function better or more

330
00:15:53,230 --> 00:15:49,760
efficiently or have better outcomes

331
00:15:55,270 --> 00:15:53,240
those kinds of things so kind of reminds

332
00:15:58,090 --> 00:15:55,280
me my my son and I talked quite a bit

333
00:16:01,150 --> 00:15:58,100
about the UFO phenomenon he's more or

334
00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:01,160
less a skeptic but and about you know

335
00:16:05,530 --> 00:16:03,440
the whole paranormal thing but he kind

336
00:16:07,750 --> 00:16:05,540
of says something along the lines of

337
00:16:10,450 --> 00:16:07,760
what you're saying more or less that if

338
00:16:15,310 --> 00:16:10,460
this is all there is you know that we

339
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:15,320
know then it's kind of boring yes I

340
00:16:19,750 --> 00:16:17,810
would hope that there was something and

341
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:19,760
you know one of the things you said you

342
00:16:24,370 --> 00:16:22,210
know people do see cows people do see

343
00:16:27,370 --> 00:16:24,380
UFOs and you know what there's an answer

344
00:16:30,190 --> 00:16:27,380
for every single one somehow there's

345
00:16:32,050 --> 00:16:30,200
some type of answer and you know I

346
00:16:34,570 --> 00:16:32,060
believe that's one hundred percent true

347
00:16:37,990 --> 00:16:34,580
there is an answer and we as far as the

348
00:16:43,660 --> 00:16:38,000
UFOs go we really don't have that answer

349
00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:43,670
you know but to make the proclamation

350
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:44,710
that we know that they're

351
00:16:49,510 --> 00:16:46,970
extraterrestrials is just as bad as a

352
00:16:53,740 --> 00:16:49,520
skeptic saying that they don't exist at

353
00:16:58,090 --> 00:16:53,750
all you know I'm and what what would you

354
00:17:00,340 --> 00:16:58,100
consider what do you think a UFO is all

355
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:00,350
these people that are reporting what

356
00:17:04,590 --> 00:17:02,810
they're seeing like 30,000 year reported

357
00:17:08,380 --> 00:17:04,600
and they think that's only ten percent

358
00:17:10,180 --> 00:17:08,390
sure well let me approach it this way I

359
00:17:14,140 --> 00:17:10,190
want to go back to the comment you made

360
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:14,150
about being skeptical and my

361
00:17:17,830 --> 00:17:16,010
understanding is that anybody who

362
00:17:18,970 --> 00:17:17,840
utilizes a scientific method which

363
00:17:21,190 --> 00:17:18,980
really is I mean people talk about

364
00:17:23,350 --> 00:17:21,200
science but really science is a series

365
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:23,360
of methods that are used which basically

366
00:17:26,470 --> 00:17:24,890
people have agreed upon that if you

367
00:17:29,290 --> 00:17:26,480
follow this procedure you to this

368
00:17:32,170 --> 00:17:29,300
protocol you you know do X Y or Z you

369
00:17:34,990 --> 00:17:32,180
can wind up with a particular result

370
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:35,000
that can be replicated and other people

371
00:17:38,830 --> 00:17:37,010
can check it out so it's it's sort of a

372
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:38,840
democratic process where you're able to

373
00:17:43,450 --> 00:17:41,690
really verify the findings that you have

374
00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:43,460
and

375
00:17:49,870 --> 00:17:48,110
that what you've discovered or what

376
00:17:54,340 --> 00:17:49,880
you've uncovered is something that's

377
00:17:57,130 --> 00:17:54,350
reliable and so the skeptic apart is I

378
00:17:59,080 --> 00:17:57,140
think every scientist is is always

379
00:18:00,760 --> 00:17:59,090
skeptical I mean we're even skeptical

380
00:18:03,610 --> 00:18:00,770
our own findings because we're familiar

381
00:18:05,110 --> 00:18:03,620
with the limitations of any of any

382
00:18:08,470 --> 00:18:05,120
research methodology there's always

383
00:18:10,510 --> 00:18:08,480
going to be some kind of limitation so

384
00:18:15,159 --> 00:18:10,520
having said that I think it's important

385
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:15,169
to never kind of lose that sense of

386
00:18:18,580 --> 00:18:17,330
skepticism now I think it can be taken

387
00:18:20,799 --> 00:18:18,590
to extreme where you make proclamations

388
00:18:22,180 --> 00:18:20,809
you know these things don't exist or

389
00:18:24,190 --> 00:18:22,190
clearly that's wrong or something like

390
00:18:25,870 --> 00:18:24,200
that I don't go that far because I I

391
00:18:27,430 --> 00:18:25,880
don't know you know i just i don't i

392
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:27,440
mean i think it's sort of arrogant to

393
00:18:31,180 --> 00:18:29,690
for any human being to think that

394
00:18:33,340 --> 00:18:31,190
they've figured out the universe you

395
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:33,350
know it means mike just beams like a

396
00:18:38,889 --> 00:18:37,610
little at the same time i think one of

397
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:38,899
the things that is important to

398
00:18:42,909 --> 00:18:40,970
understand is it knowledge any knowledge

399
00:18:44,049 --> 00:18:42,919
in a particular scientific knowledge or

400
00:18:45,940 --> 00:18:44,059
knowledge it's generated to the

401
00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:45,950
scientific method is conditional and

402
00:18:52,180 --> 00:18:48,230
it's conditional upon what's available

403
00:18:54,669 --> 00:18:52,190
to us the different tools or mechanisms

404
00:18:56,710 --> 00:18:54,679
that we have to make contact with the

405
00:18:59,409 --> 00:18:56,720
world so obviously as technology has

406
00:19:01,510 --> 00:18:59,419
changed and allowed us to do you know

407
00:19:03,460 --> 00:19:01,520
look farther into space or look deeper

408
00:19:07,450 --> 00:19:03,470
into atomic particles or something like

409
00:19:09,639 --> 00:19:07,460
that then we get new knowledge and so

410
00:19:11,110 --> 00:19:09,649
it's conditional based upon our current

411
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:11,120
level of ability to explore and

412
00:19:16,299 --> 00:19:12,890
investigate and then it's also

413
00:19:18,010 --> 00:19:16,309
conditional because we know that there's

414
00:19:19,870 --> 00:19:18,020
not everything to be known so depending

415
00:19:21,610 --> 00:19:19,880
upon new technological advances we might

416
00:19:23,470 --> 00:19:21,620
get new knowledge depending upon new

417
00:19:24,639 --> 00:19:23,480
discoveries or kind of putting these

418
00:19:27,370 --> 00:19:24,649
things together we hadn't thought of

419
00:19:30,519 --> 00:19:27,380
before we generate new knowledge so it's

420
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:30,529
never in my opinion it's never fact you

421
00:19:35,350 --> 00:19:31,850
know it's never this is the way it is

422
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:35,360
and this is a way it will always be so

423
00:19:41,289 --> 00:19:37,250
having said that what do I think UFOs

424
00:19:42,700 --> 00:19:41,299
are you know I don't know I mean you

425
00:19:46,060 --> 00:19:42,710
know if I step out of my kind of

426
00:19:48,250 --> 00:19:46,070
scientist shell or whatever you know my

427
00:19:49,750 --> 00:19:48,260
belief system is yeah I'd love to

428
00:19:51,250 --> 00:19:49,760
believe that their extraterrestrial I

429
00:19:52,750 --> 00:19:51,260
think that'd be really cool i mean you

430
00:19:54,190 --> 00:19:52,760
know i'd love to believe in Bigfoot and

431
00:19:56,419 --> 00:19:54,200
everything else too I think that'd be

432
00:19:59,450 --> 00:19:56,429
really cool but at the same

433
00:20:01,909 --> 00:19:59,460
time I know that in order for me to

434
00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:01,919
really believe in them in a sense as I

435
00:20:05,810 --> 00:20:03,960
believe in a table that exists in front

436
00:20:09,230 --> 00:20:05,820
of me or something like that I need to

437
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:09,240
have proof so one of the things that I

438
00:20:14,210 --> 00:20:11,730
tell my students is when we utilize the

439
00:20:17,060 --> 00:20:14,220
scientific method we rely on empiricism

440
00:20:18,970 --> 00:20:17,070
which is basically the collection of

441
00:20:21,859 --> 00:20:18,980
data with one or more of our five senses

442
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:21,869
so the more data you can collect with

443
00:20:25,879 --> 00:20:24,450
one or more of those five senses as the

444
00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:25,889
bed of data you have and the more

445
00:20:31,489 --> 00:20:27,529
reliable your findings are going to be

446
00:20:33,470 --> 00:20:31,499
so when it comes to UFOs what what are

447
00:20:36,859 --> 00:20:33,480
the data sources that we have ok we have

448
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:36,869
eyewitness reports we have videos we

449
00:20:42,379 --> 00:20:39,570
have maybe some recordings we have

450
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:42,389
testimony but really those are in a

451
00:20:47,210 --> 00:20:45,090
sense only only relying on two senses

452
00:20:48,889 --> 00:20:47,220
right I mean and then you know the claim

453
00:20:50,269 --> 00:20:48,899
that there's radiation or maybe

454
00:20:53,659 --> 00:20:50,279
something that was found something like

455
00:20:56,629 --> 00:20:53,669
that there's my radar data as well radar

456
00:21:00,830 --> 00:20:56,639
data to all of that though I would say

457
00:21:03,139 --> 00:21:00,840
would fall under the in terms of senses

458
00:21:05,239 --> 00:21:03,149
would fall in in a sense of sight

459
00:21:06,710 --> 00:21:05,249
because what a radar does is allows us

460
00:21:10,039 --> 00:21:06,720
in a sense to see things that we

461
00:21:12,379 --> 00:21:10,049
normally wouldn't be able to say so is

462
00:21:14,980 --> 00:21:12,389
it is in my mind is that sufficient to

463
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:14,990
conclude that there's you know something

464
00:21:18,919 --> 00:21:17,730
clearly that's it's insufficient

465
00:21:22,039 --> 00:21:18,929
evidence to conclude there's something

466
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:22,049
extraterrestrial is it is there evidence

467
00:21:26,989 --> 00:21:24,210
to conclude there's something there yeah

468
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:26,999
probably so but without more evidence

469
00:21:32,090 --> 00:21:29,850
with more more information that we've

470
00:21:34,340 --> 00:21:32,100
gathered maybe from again an artifact or

471
00:21:36,259 --> 00:21:34,350
you know something else I think it's

472
00:21:38,180 --> 00:21:36,269
we're stretching the bounds at least

473
00:21:41,899 --> 00:21:38,190
within the realm of Sciences to make a

474
00:21:45,139 --> 00:21:41,909
claim of what exactly it is mm-hmm well

475
00:21:49,190 --> 00:21:45,149
I actually agree with you you know as

476
00:21:51,470 --> 00:21:49,200
hard as that may sound no I I think that

477
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:51,480
you know a lot of people just make the

478
00:21:55,789 --> 00:21:53,610
total assumption by the way anyone

479
00:21:58,129 --> 00:21:55,799
listening live on the Dark Matter radio

480
00:22:01,009 --> 00:21:58,139
network please jump right on over to

481
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:01,019
podcast UFO calm and get in the chat

482
00:22:06,849 --> 00:22:03,090
room if you would like to pose some

483
00:22:09,980 --> 00:22:06,859
questions or interact well getting back

484
00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:09,990
to you know the thoughts

485
00:22:17,030 --> 00:22:13,110
what they are let's bounce back a little

486
00:22:19,340 --> 00:22:17,040
bit to the thing you always hear that

487
00:22:22,340 --> 00:22:19,350
people mostly in the science field will

488
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:22,350
say it's impossible for them to get here

489
00:22:28,250 --> 00:22:24,330
because it would take so many lifetimes

490
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:28,260
and you know using all of today's

491
00:22:33,380 --> 00:22:30,570
physics the thoughts are it's impossible

492
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:33,390
that they they could have ever visit us

493
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:37,170
or have come here or the way everything

494
00:22:42,620 --> 00:22:40,050
becomes extinct on planets like

495
00:22:44,810 --> 00:22:42,630
ninety-nine percent of species on this

496
00:22:47,020 --> 00:22:44,820
planet that happens elsewhere and we've

497
00:22:49,580 --> 00:22:47,030
only been here for a very short time

498
00:22:52,130 --> 00:22:49,590
comparatively to the Earth's existence

499
00:22:53,660 --> 00:22:52,140
and how could these two you know cross

500
00:22:55,490 --> 00:22:53,670
how could we cross with another

501
00:22:57,830 --> 00:22:55,500
civilization that's going to be wiped

502
00:23:00,040 --> 00:22:57,840
out you know you know on and on and on

503
00:23:03,260 --> 00:23:00,050
and on so what are your thoughts about

504
00:23:07,610 --> 00:23:03,270
do you think it's possible that we have

505
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:07,620
been visited and are being visited well

506
00:23:13,730 --> 00:23:11,970
um let me let me start with you know

507
00:23:15,590 --> 00:23:13,740
whether it's physically impossible I

508
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:15,600
mean I'm not a physicist so I don't I

509
00:23:19,970 --> 00:23:17,010
don't feel qualified to answer that

510
00:23:21,860 --> 00:23:19,980
question I think the only thing I could

511
00:23:25,010 --> 00:23:21,870
say about that is it kind of goes back

512
00:23:28,370 --> 00:23:25,020
to what I said earlier about you know I

513
00:23:30,980 --> 00:23:28,380
think it's sort of arrogant and you know

514
00:23:33,290 --> 00:23:30,990
to claim that we have complete knowledge

515
00:23:36,169 --> 00:23:33,300
of exactly how the universe operates I

516
00:23:38,450 --> 00:23:36,179
that just seems you know it seems

517
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:38,460
unsubstantiated to me because it's it's

518
00:23:43,190 --> 00:23:41,010
a pretty wild claim that we considering

519
00:23:45,919 --> 00:23:43,200
that if we're if we're even accurate as

520
00:23:47,870 --> 00:23:45,929
to how large the universe is you know

521
00:23:49,340 --> 00:23:47,880
how much access do we have to it and how

522
00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:49,350
do we know there might not might be

523
00:23:54,830 --> 00:23:51,510
something else entirely going on in

524
00:23:56,570 --> 00:23:54,840
another physical setting somewhere so so

525
00:23:59,150 --> 00:23:56,580
I'm afraid the physicists would have to

526
00:24:04,280 --> 00:23:59,160
comment on that having said that you

527
00:24:08,299 --> 00:24:04,290
know I still would not necessarily take

528
00:24:09,710 --> 00:24:08,309
their statement a hundred percent with a

529
00:24:11,090 --> 00:24:09,720
hundred percent confidence because of

530
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:11,100
what i said is that I'm always going to

531
00:24:14,860 --> 00:24:13,050
be skeptical it even skeptical of

532
00:24:18,380 --> 00:24:14,870
anybody who makes a claim like that

533
00:24:20,210 --> 00:24:18,390
because I think a lot of that and you

534
00:24:21,500 --> 00:24:20,220
know I could be way wrong but I think a

535
00:24:23,820 --> 00:24:21,510
lot of it's based on you know

536
00:24:25,649 --> 00:24:23,830
mathematical calculations which

537
00:24:29,310 --> 00:24:25,659
clearly a lot of our science is based on

538
00:24:31,169 --> 00:24:29,320
that but but that doesn't mean in my

539
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:31,179
mind that that's exactly how things work

540
00:24:36,930 --> 00:24:33,130
work and there's something that I've

541
00:24:39,570 --> 00:24:36,940
paid attention to is it in maybe it's a

542
00:24:42,090 --> 00:24:39,580
function or a result of our you know our

543
00:24:43,830 --> 00:24:42,100
being human but there's always we

544
00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:43,840
there's always error and whatever we do

545
00:24:49,350 --> 00:24:46,510
I mean we don't have precise measurement

546
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:49,360
so in some cases you know if you take a

547
00:24:54,210 --> 00:24:52,690
medication for you know heart disease or

548
00:24:55,620 --> 00:24:54,220
something they always list all the side

549
00:24:58,649 --> 00:24:55,630
effects well the side effects are the

550
00:25:00,149 --> 00:24:58,659
errors you know and sometimes it's

551
00:25:02,039 --> 00:25:00,159
astounding the number of side effects

552
00:25:04,289 --> 00:25:02,049
there are but and I think that that's a

553
00:25:06,930 --> 00:25:04,299
similar case in regardless of whatever

554
00:25:09,269 --> 00:25:06,940
science it is were whatever scientific

555
00:25:11,909 --> 00:25:09,279
method we're applying so in my mind that

556
00:25:14,129 --> 00:25:11,919
that opportunity for error leaves open

557
00:25:15,450 --> 00:25:14,139
the possibility that you know there

558
00:25:19,110 --> 00:25:15,460
might be something else here that we're

559
00:25:20,460 --> 00:25:19,120
completely missing and then the part

560
00:25:23,129 --> 00:25:20,470
about you know whether we've been

561
00:25:26,399 --> 00:25:23,139
visited or not again to me that would be

562
00:25:28,259 --> 00:25:26,409
you know an unknown I mean I i think the

563
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:28,269
the the only thing that I could come

564
00:25:33,299 --> 00:25:31,360
close to considering as being visitation

565
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:33,309
would be you know the theory of

566
00:25:38,340 --> 00:25:36,850
panspermia maybe life you know we sort

567
00:25:42,870 --> 00:25:38,350
of happened because something landed

568
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:42,880
here you know the claim that we've been

569
00:25:46,860 --> 00:25:45,130
visited by previous civilizations and

570
00:25:49,110 --> 00:25:46,870
they've influenced our architecture and

571
00:25:52,169 --> 00:25:49,120
all that kind of stuff you know I can't

572
00:25:54,450 --> 00:25:52,179
put a lot of credence in that because in

573
00:25:56,100 --> 00:25:54,460
my mind you know it's kind of like that

574
00:25:57,539 --> 00:25:56,110
statement that Sherlock Holmes makes and

575
00:25:59,879 --> 00:25:57,549
I remember exactly what it is but it's

576
00:26:01,470 --> 00:25:59,889
basically you know and when you've

577
00:26:03,750 --> 00:26:01,480
solved everything else you know what's

578
00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:03,760
left is he or I guess what that's not

579
00:26:08,490 --> 00:26:06,130
what he says but the by point is it we

580
00:26:11,310 --> 00:26:08,500
have to rule out all of the known

581
00:26:12,659 --> 00:26:11,320
phenomena first known reasons for why

582
00:26:14,850 --> 00:26:12,669
something exists before we could even

583
00:26:16,889 --> 00:26:14,860
begin to consider an alternative

584
00:26:19,259 --> 00:26:16,899
explanation or an explanation that would

585
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:19,269
be metaphysical and I don't think we've

586
00:26:22,980 --> 00:26:21,010
exhausted that when it comes to

587
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:22,990
understanding like ancient architecture

588
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:25,450
ancient technologies or or anything like

589
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:28,210
that so in my mind again from a

590
00:26:32,549 --> 00:26:30,010
scientific standpoint we would have to

591
00:26:34,139 --> 00:26:32,559
exhaust all of those possibilities or

592
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:34,149
all those explanations to say none of

593
00:26:38,730 --> 00:26:37,210
these work and even then I

594
00:26:41,190 --> 00:26:38,740
no that we could just jump to the claim

595
00:26:42,930 --> 00:26:41,200
that it's extraterrestrial because still

596
00:26:44,430 --> 00:26:42,940
we would have we would say okay well

597
00:26:46,769 --> 00:26:44,440
maybe we're missing something it goes

598
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:46,779
back to that inevitable amount of error

599
00:26:51,090 --> 00:26:48,970
or that inevitable amount of limitation

600
00:26:53,070 --> 00:26:51,100
that you're gonna you're gonna miss so

601
00:26:54,990 --> 00:26:53,080
that's why I was saying I mean I kind of

602
00:26:56,730 --> 00:26:55,000
agree with Seth not not that I have to

603
00:26:59,460 --> 00:26:56,740
have it in the in the Smithsonian but

604
00:27:01,470 --> 00:26:59,470
come on Kent can't these guys leave some

605
00:27:03,149 --> 00:27:01,480
kind of hard evidence that you know what

606
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:03,159
can it without you ate I mean that would

607
00:27:08,130 --> 00:27:05,890
I think that most you know anybody's

608
00:27:10,980 --> 00:27:08,140
interested in science would just really

609
00:27:13,110 --> 00:27:10,990
love for a space ship to land somewhere

610
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:13,120
and say here we are you know that's the

611
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:15,250
kind of evidence that we want right

612
00:27:19,740 --> 00:27:16,690
that's you know we could investigate

613
00:27:21,389 --> 00:27:19,750
that and and so yeah in my mind that's

614
00:27:23,070 --> 00:27:21,399
the kind of evidence i would need you

615
00:27:24,870 --> 00:27:23,080
know i think all the the other claims

616
00:27:26,250 --> 00:27:24,880
people can make claims i mean this is

617
00:27:28,769 --> 00:27:26,260
one of the things that it sounds me

618
00:27:30,419 --> 00:27:28,779
about a lot of people on TV when they

619
00:27:32,039 --> 00:27:30,429
make claims about ancient aliens and all

620
00:27:34,169 --> 00:27:32,049
that kind of stuff is there welcome to

621
00:27:35,850 --> 00:27:34,179
make those claims but they're not really

622
00:27:38,399 --> 00:27:35,860
i don't know that they have the same

623
00:27:40,769 --> 00:27:38,409
responsibilities that a scientist does

624
00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:40,779
in backing up those claims with really

625
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:43,120
solid empirical evidence that's been

626
00:27:47,639 --> 00:27:46,090
vetted by a number of other people yeah

627
00:27:51,210 --> 00:27:47,649
I think that's the difference you know

628
00:27:53,580 --> 00:27:51,220
and and I guarantee you you know I hear

629
00:27:55,110 --> 00:27:53,590
people say well scientists are this

630
00:27:57,180 --> 00:27:55,120
conspiracy and they're trying to you

631
00:27:58,680 --> 00:27:57,190
know they don't you know it's the non

632
00:28:00,870 --> 00:27:58,690
traditional science and they want to

633
00:28:02,789 --> 00:28:00,880
keep all this information you know out

634
00:28:07,230 --> 00:28:02,799
of the mainstream no I mean it's like

635
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:07,240
come on if if we had information like

636
00:28:09,990 --> 00:28:08,890
that they would jump on it because

637
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:10,000
you're talking about a Nobel Prize

638
00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:12,370
you're talking about you know every kind

639
00:28:15,570 --> 00:28:14,110
of prize imaginable if you could prove

640
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:15,580
the existence of something that was

641
00:28:20,279 --> 00:28:18,010
extraterrestrial or out of the ordinary

642
00:28:22,730 --> 00:28:20,289
I mean that that whole argument just

643
00:28:25,889 --> 00:28:22,740
never made any sense to me so in my mind

644
00:28:27,630 --> 00:28:25,899
yeah I'm kind of like Seth I don't need

645
00:28:29,039 --> 00:28:27,640
it in the Smithsonian but I'd sure like

646
00:28:32,669 --> 00:28:29,049
to have more evidence than we have right

647
00:28:36,539 --> 00:28:32,679
now yeah well you know maybe the

648
00:28:38,970 --> 00:28:36,549
evidence that is not here is purpose you

649
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:38,980
know maybe it's purposeful of them not

650
00:28:43,529 --> 00:28:40,960
not to give any you know they're

651
00:28:46,379 --> 00:28:43,539
certainly whatever it is is not afraid

652
00:28:48,450 --> 00:28:46,389
of being seen but as far as actually

653
00:28:50,940 --> 00:28:48,460
leaving fizzle physical evidence maybe

654
00:28:53,909 --> 00:28:50,950
that's their intention not to

655
00:28:55,139 --> 00:28:53,919
if that's what they are but I'm not

656
00:28:58,430 --> 00:28:55,149
saying that's what they are it's just

657
00:29:02,430 --> 00:28:58,440
tuned yeah you know who really knows but

658
00:29:04,919 --> 00:29:02,440
one of the things i think about and as

659
00:29:07,279 --> 00:29:04,929
far as there's never any funding or

660
00:29:09,930 --> 00:29:07,289
anything to actually study this but

661
00:29:12,990 --> 00:29:09,940
along the same lines there's a lot of

662
00:29:17,639 --> 00:29:13,000
funding to try to figure out what dark

663
00:29:19,830 --> 00:29:17,649
matter is or things along that line that

664
00:29:22,740 --> 00:29:19,840
we don't really know but we just think

665
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:22,750
they exist like i can't remember a dark

666
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:24,490
energy and dark matter how much of the

667
00:29:29,159 --> 00:29:27,010
universe they what the percentages of

668
00:29:31,169 --> 00:29:29,169
what they think right i think it's

669
00:29:33,779 --> 00:29:31,179
pretty largely done without my head

670
00:29:35,759 --> 00:29:33,789
either yeah yeah but what do you think

671
00:29:38,340 --> 00:29:35,769
about that about all these claims about

672
00:29:40,110 --> 00:29:38,350
from scientists about dark matter up

673
00:29:42,299 --> 00:29:40,120
because they see what's happening with

674
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:42,309
the gravity that doesn't make sense and

675
00:29:47,639 --> 00:29:45,130
things like that right so I think the

676
00:29:50,450 --> 00:29:47,649
difference between that and UFOs is

677
00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:50,460
they're building off of already known

678
00:29:56,909 --> 00:29:54,880
evidence so I mean they clearly have

679
00:29:58,409 --> 00:29:56,919
some kind of empirical tangible evidence

680
00:29:59,490 --> 00:29:58,419
that they've been working with then you

681
00:30:01,350 --> 00:29:59,500
know when it comes to quantum mechanics

682
00:30:03,299 --> 00:30:01,360
or all that kind of stuff I don't I

683
00:30:05,789 --> 00:30:03,309
clearly don't understand that and I'm

684
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:05,799
not really sure how it all operates but

685
00:30:10,889 --> 00:30:09,610
the point is that with these scientists

686
00:30:12,629 --> 00:30:10,899
what they're doing is they're they're

687
00:30:15,269 --> 00:30:12,639
basing its kind of like a whole idea of

688
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:15,279
their standing on the shoulders of

689
00:30:20,279 --> 00:30:17,710
giants they're building on evidence that

690
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:20,289
already exists so they have something to

691
00:30:25,019 --> 00:30:22,210
start from and they have observations

692
00:30:26,340 --> 00:30:25,029
that have been made in the past that you

693
00:30:29,310 --> 00:30:26,350
know they don't maybe they don't

694
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:29,320
understand or they it's not clear and so

695
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:31,450
they continue to investigate but they're

696
00:30:34,350 --> 00:30:33,130
investigating something I mean they have

697
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:34,360
some evidence that they're beginning

698
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:37,330
with it they're starting with and and I

699
00:30:41,190 --> 00:30:39,130
think again this is the the problem that

700
00:30:43,860 --> 00:30:41,200
we have with supporting the claim of

701
00:30:45,990 --> 00:30:43,870
what exactly UFO is is because we just

702
00:30:47,340 --> 00:30:46,000
don't have the same kind of evidence I

703
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:47,350
mean if you think about a physicist or

704
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:49,210
something they actually have particles

705
00:30:52,830 --> 00:30:51,490
that they can observe that they can see

706
00:30:54,659 --> 00:30:52,840
that they you know they may not be able

707
00:30:56,700 --> 00:30:54,669
to touch but they have a way of making

708
00:30:58,919 --> 00:30:56,710
contact with it and they have it within

709
00:31:01,560 --> 00:30:58,929
their control so they're able to analyze

710
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:01,570
it and again demonstrate it to more than

711
00:31:06,899 --> 00:31:04,570
one person and this is the

712
00:31:09,990 --> 00:31:06,909
the replication part of science that

713
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:10,000
before something is is settled before we

714
00:31:14,370 --> 00:31:12,250
agree that yeah this is what's going on

715
00:31:16,799 --> 00:31:14,380
we have to have some consensus among a

716
00:31:18,509 --> 00:31:16,809
number of people and yeah is there a

717
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:18,519
consensus among a number of people that

718
00:31:24,149 --> 00:31:21,370
UFOs exist yes clearly there are but

719
00:31:25,980 --> 00:31:24,159
have those same people evaluated the

720
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:25,990
evidence to the same extent that

721
00:31:30,659 --> 00:31:28,240
research scientists would evaluate the

722
00:31:33,060 --> 00:31:30,669
evidence that's the difference and it

723
00:31:34,590 --> 00:31:33,070
seems to me that part of what happens is

724
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:34,600
just because a lot of people believe in

725
00:31:38,879 --> 00:31:37,210
something doesn't necessarily that that

726
00:31:42,869 --> 00:31:38,889
in and of itself is insufficient to

727
00:31:45,149 --> 00:31:42,879
substantiate that it exists but when it

728
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:45,159
comes to things like dark matter yeah

729
00:31:47,759 --> 00:31:46,570
like I said I think they're they're

730
00:31:50,639 --> 00:31:47,769
building on something that's already

731
00:31:51,749 --> 00:31:50,649
there so they're not there's no

732
00:31:53,759 --> 00:31:51,759
speculation or there might be

733
00:31:55,669 --> 00:31:53,769
speculation involved into what's going

734
00:31:57,810 --> 00:31:55,679
on but then they you know they

735
00:31:59,610 --> 00:31:57,820
experimented with they subjected to a

736
00:32:02,340 --> 00:31:59,620
series of tests again following certain

737
00:32:04,139 --> 00:32:02,350
protocols and then you discover if if

738
00:32:05,730 --> 00:32:04,149
their ideas are accurate or maybe they

739
00:32:07,289 --> 00:32:05,740
thought maybe they discovered wow this

740
00:32:08,999 --> 00:32:07,299
isn't what we were thinking at all it's

741
00:32:11,159 --> 00:32:09,009
entirely different but they still have

742
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:11,169
some evidence to go on I think that's

743
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:13,690
the big difference mm-hmm and you know

744
00:32:17,549 --> 00:32:15,730
and again we don't we just don't have

745
00:32:18,930 --> 00:32:17,559
that when it comes to you know some of

746
00:32:21,869 --> 00:32:18,940
these things that we're calling UFOs

747
00:32:26,279 --> 00:32:21,879
what we have in this situation is a

748
00:32:28,289 --> 00:32:26,289
fleeting it's fleeting and if if it

749
00:32:30,919 --> 00:32:28,299
wasn't fleeting then that would make all

750
00:32:34,919 --> 00:32:30,929
the difference and it's you never know

751
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:34,929
when and where one will show up you know

752
00:32:39,690 --> 00:32:37,330
with a the sighting and that I had you

753
00:32:42,570 --> 00:32:39,700
know I was relaxing not expecting

754
00:32:45,659 --> 00:32:42,580
anything to happen and that's the way

755
00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:45,669
you know it generally happens but one of

756
00:32:49,529 --> 00:32:47,440
the things that I think about is you

757
00:32:51,779 --> 00:32:49,539
know they're the the mass sightings when

758
00:32:54,149 --> 00:32:51,789
you know thousands of people saw the

759
00:32:55,950 --> 00:32:54,159
Phoenix lights and saw right the sky

760
00:32:57,749 --> 00:32:55,960
blackout oh you know in between the

761
00:33:01,379 --> 00:32:57,759
lights over their head and you know it

762
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:01,389
was something right you know the mass

763
00:33:06,810 --> 00:33:04,330
sightings you know really you know it

764
00:33:08,610 --> 00:33:06,820
makes you wonder what type of sighting

765
00:33:11,129 --> 00:33:08,620
that you would really need for someone

766
00:33:13,590 --> 00:33:11,139
to actually try to investigate certain

767
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:13,600
like this or take it seriously what do

768
00:33:17,730 --> 00:33:16,090
you yeah yeah I agree with you about the

769
00:33:20,130 --> 00:33:17,740
fleeting part I mean clearly you know

770
00:33:22,770 --> 00:33:20,140
one of the disadvantages is you can't

771
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:22,780
call up a UFO at will and have it be

772
00:33:27,270 --> 00:33:24,370
available for investigation that's

773
00:33:28,380 --> 00:33:27,280
obviously what are the big problems the

774
00:33:30,150 --> 00:33:28,390
thing that intrigued me about the

775
00:33:33,390 --> 00:33:30,160
Phoenix lights wasn't so much the lights

776
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:33,400
but was the report about the the sky

777
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:35,410
disappearing or you know this seemingly

778
00:33:40,890 --> 00:33:38,170
big black object floating overhead that

779
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:40,900
was moving at a very slow pace and you

780
00:33:45,630 --> 00:33:43,050
know like said blacked out the sky

781
00:33:48,419 --> 00:33:45,640
that's really intriguing to me I mean I

782
00:33:49,950 --> 00:33:48,429
I don't doubt that those folks saw that

783
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:49,960
and the fact that it was reported by

784
00:33:53,970 --> 00:33:51,970
more than one person in more than one

785
00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:53,980
location certainly lends credence to the

786
00:33:57,690 --> 00:33:55,440
fact that there was something there

787
00:33:59,340 --> 00:33:57,700
again but you know saying there's

788
00:34:00,990 --> 00:33:59,350
something there and then making the

789
00:34:02,850 --> 00:34:01,000
claim that it was extraterrestrial or

790
00:34:06,060 --> 00:34:02,860
something we can't do that because we

791
00:34:07,860 --> 00:34:06,070
don't know what was there the part about

792
00:34:10,050 --> 00:34:07,870
you know if you have X number of people

793
00:34:12,540 --> 00:34:10,060
that see something they give you an

794
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:12,550
example and you know in when we had the

795
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:15,970
tragedy of 911 for a while on the

796
00:34:21,389 --> 00:34:19,090
internet there was a picture of smoke

797
00:34:22,490 --> 00:34:21,399
coming from one of the buildings when

798
00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:22,500
one of the buildings was collapse

799
00:34:29,070 --> 00:34:26,800
collapsing and there was a figure in a

800
00:34:31,230 --> 00:34:29,080
shape in the in the smoke that looked

801
00:34:33,389 --> 00:34:31,240
like what we think of as being the devil

802
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:33,399
right so you know went around and said

803
00:34:38,250 --> 00:34:34,810
oh look this is the work of the devil

804
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:38,260
okay well you know clearly lots of

805
00:34:42,240 --> 00:34:40,330
people saw that but is that evidence

806
00:34:43,919 --> 00:34:42,250
that the devil was it worked at the

807
00:34:47,430 --> 00:34:43,929
double hand have a hand in bringing down

808
00:34:48,780 --> 00:34:47,440
911 you know one I mean a lot of people

809
00:34:50,879 --> 00:34:48,790
going to reject that immediately cuz it

810
00:34:52,830 --> 00:34:50,889
like no there's no devil but the other

811
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:52,840
part of it is you know how do we

812
00:34:56,730 --> 00:34:54,970
investigate that well you know if we

813
00:34:58,650 --> 00:34:56,740
weren't able to capture the smoke that

814
00:35:00,780 --> 00:34:58,660
was there we could you know determine if

815
00:35:03,630 --> 00:35:00,790
there was something metaphysical about

816
00:35:06,930 --> 00:35:03,640
it appearing but you know obviously we

817
00:35:07,980 --> 00:35:06,940
don't have that available to us but

818
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:07,990
again just because a lot of people

819
00:35:15,810 --> 00:35:10,930
observe something doesn't necessarily it

820
00:35:17,790 --> 00:35:15,820
clearly acknowledges a lot of people saw

821
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:17,800
something but what they saw that's

822
00:35:21,180 --> 00:35:19,510
what's in question now what's

823
00:35:23,730 --> 00:35:21,190
interesting to me is when people claim

824
00:35:27,090 --> 00:35:23,740
that it was the devil if you look cross

825
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:27,100
culturally the devil you know takes the

826
00:35:31,660 --> 00:35:29,050
form in many different forms it has many

827
00:35:33,430 --> 00:35:31,670
different faces so it's almost like

828
00:35:35,980 --> 00:35:33,440
this devil happened it just happened to

829
00:35:38,020 --> 00:35:35,990
be the devil that a lot of people in

830
00:35:39,370 --> 00:35:38,030
America you know the face happened to be

831
00:35:40,599 --> 00:35:39,380
the same kind of devil a lot of people

832
00:35:43,089 --> 00:35:40,609
in America think of when they think of

833
00:35:45,370 --> 00:35:43,099
the devil why would that be I mean is

834
00:35:47,620 --> 00:35:45,380
the devil you know purposely trying to

835
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:47,630
appear in a western european face or I

836
00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:48,770
mean I you know what I'm saying it's

837
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:50,510
kind of like it calls into question

838
00:35:55,900 --> 00:35:54,290
these kinds of things yeah like it's

839
00:35:57,490 --> 00:35:55,910
kind of like when an alien lands and it

840
00:36:01,450 --> 00:35:57,500
takes on an English accent when it

841
00:36:02,950 --> 00:36:01,460
landed in England yeah that was just for

842
00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:02,960
the benefit of the cobbler local folk

843
00:36:07,420 --> 00:36:04,910
you know that's right that's right a

844
00:36:12,339 --> 00:36:07,430
couple of questions on the chat room

845
00:36:13,569 --> 00:36:12,349
there and uh Eric wants to know how what

846
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:13,579
do you think about the memory of

847
00:36:21,299 --> 00:36:16,970
individuals of recalling sightings from

848
00:36:27,750 --> 00:36:21,309
years ago yeah I mean you know the whole

849
00:36:30,849 --> 00:36:27,760
memory recollection phenomenon that's uh

850
00:36:33,309 --> 00:36:30,859
you know I think I have a tendency to

851
00:36:34,809 --> 00:36:33,319
agree with the you know the different

852
00:36:37,450 --> 00:36:34,819
people that say they're remembering

853
00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:37,460
something and if you're remembering a

854
00:36:41,710 --> 00:36:39,049
sighting that you've had you know X

855
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:41,720
numbers of years ago it's really you

856
00:36:44,620 --> 00:36:42,890
know it's kind of no different than

857
00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:44,630
remembering a sighting you have just the

858
00:36:48,430 --> 00:36:46,730
other day it's still you're still making

859
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:48,440
a claim about something that you saw the

860
00:36:53,530 --> 00:36:51,410
question is you know perhaps why did you

861
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:53,540
not remember it for a period of time or

862
00:36:58,630 --> 00:36:56,930
the question is is it any more valid

863
00:37:01,900 --> 00:36:58,640
than a sighting that's made you know

864
00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:01,910
immediately and again I think that

865
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:04,250
regardless of when the sighting was made

866
00:37:09,250 --> 00:37:07,010
it falls into the camp that okay you saw

867
00:37:13,599 --> 00:37:09,260
something but what exactly was it that

868
00:37:15,039 --> 00:37:13,609
you saw we don't know you know that's

869
00:37:16,809 --> 00:37:15,049
kind of the way that I would respond to

870
00:37:19,930 --> 00:37:16,819
that again what what evidence do you

871
00:37:21,430 --> 00:37:19,940
have other than you saw something do you

872
00:37:23,950 --> 00:37:21,440
have more evidence than that if you

873
00:37:26,190 --> 00:37:23,960
don't then that just goes into the I saw

874
00:37:29,140 --> 00:37:26,200
something i'm not sure what it was file

875
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:29,150
okay excuse me we have another question

876
00:37:36,010 --> 00:37:34,010
here and it's why do you think people so

877
00:37:39,150 --> 00:37:36,020
strong i want to believe that we are

878
00:37:42,549 --> 00:37:39,160
being visited as a sociologist that is

879
00:37:45,460 --> 00:37:42,559
yeah you know i don't know i'm not a

880
00:37:48,250 --> 00:37:45,470
psychologist and I

881
00:37:50,530 --> 00:37:48,260
I don't subscribe to you know these

882
00:37:53,260 --> 00:37:50,540
theories that we have these deep needs

883
00:37:57,370 --> 00:37:53,270
for meaning or something like that as a

884
00:37:59,470 --> 00:37:57,380
sociologist I I look at you know kind of

885
00:38:02,140 --> 00:37:59,480
what's in this case what's in the public

886
00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:02,150
narrative like what what's available for

887
00:38:07,330 --> 00:38:04,400
people to know about in and think about

888
00:38:10,060 --> 00:38:07,340
it believe in and I think it has some of

889
00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:10,070
it has to do with popularity some of it

890
00:38:14,349 --> 00:38:11,510
might have to do with again with the

891
00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:14,359
conditions that give rise to people kind

892
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:16,730
of finding maybe life routine and drab

893
00:38:19,810 --> 00:38:18,170
and those kinds of things and so

894
00:38:21,670 --> 00:38:19,820
something out of the ordinary sparks

895
00:38:24,250 --> 00:38:21,680
their sense of creativity or Wonder or

896
00:38:26,650 --> 00:38:24,260
something like that so to me it's more

897
00:38:28,900 --> 00:38:26,660
of a social phenomenon I get I don't I

898
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:28,910
don't subscribe to the whole you know we

899
00:38:33,490 --> 00:38:31,010
we have this deep-seated need to find

900
00:38:36,450 --> 00:38:33,500
meaning in the universe or that you know

901
00:38:38,980 --> 00:38:36,460
humans need to have some sense of

902
00:38:42,490 --> 00:38:38,990
something greater than themselves I

903
00:38:44,980 --> 00:38:42,500
think those ideas are social in nature

904
00:38:47,020 --> 00:38:44,990
as well that we're led to believe that

905
00:38:49,079 --> 00:38:47,030
we have to have these steep Cedars you

906
00:38:52,109 --> 00:38:49,089
know we as human nature to have these

907
00:38:53,980 --> 00:38:52,119
deep-seated desires to know these things

908
00:38:56,260 --> 00:38:53,990
well you know you think about the

909
00:38:58,450 --> 00:38:56,270
popularity of different movies i mean i

910
00:39:00,339 --> 00:38:58,460
don't i don't know i don't have any

911
00:39:02,470 --> 00:39:00,349
evidence for this but but i'd be curious

912
00:39:04,660 --> 00:39:02,480
to see if more people today believe in

913
00:39:07,270 --> 00:39:04,670
vampires and werewolves and they did 20

914
00:39:09,460 --> 00:39:07,280
years ago right because just think about

915
00:39:11,829 --> 00:39:09,470
it i mean you know every show on TV now

916
00:39:13,420 --> 00:39:11,839
is about a vampire or you know there's

917
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:13,430
all these teen books that came out about

918
00:39:18,430 --> 00:39:16,970
vampires so I mean if I would have known

919
00:39:20,770 --> 00:39:18,440
about that I you know would have done a

920
00:39:22,599 --> 00:39:20,780
survey you know ten years ago how much

921
00:39:24,820 --> 00:39:22,609
do you believe in this and that now to

922
00:39:27,730 --> 00:39:24,830
see if there's any difference but I

923
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:27,740
think that plays a big role and you know

924
00:39:32,650 --> 00:39:30,530
certainly with UFOs it's it's uh it's I

925
00:39:35,770 --> 00:39:32,660
remember as a kid my mom telling me

926
00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:35,780
about things that she saw that she

927
00:39:38,589 --> 00:39:37,250
couldn't explain and you know that

928
00:39:40,599 --> 00:39:38,599
really piqued my interest so I think

929
00:39:42,910 --> 00:39:40,609
there's a lot of that that goes on and

930
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:42,920
clearly people are seeing something you

931
00:39:48,339 --> 00:39:45,890
know so I think to me it's more about

932
00:39:50,770 --> 00:39:48,349
just you know what floats around in the

933
00:39:52,599 --> 00:39:50,780
social world and and what topics are

934
00:39:54,339 --> 00:39:52,609
available for people to talk about and

935
00:39:57,970 --> 00:39:54,349
how much interest does it generate and

936
00:39:59,400 --> 00:39:57,980
you know it's kind of like similar to I

937
00:40:01,270 --> 00:39:59,410
have my student

938
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:01,280
periodically asked me about whether I

939
00:40:06,070 --> 00:40:02,570
really think there's a global conspiracy

940
00:40:07,420 --> 00:40:06,080
you know you know these elites getting

941
00:40:08,890 --> 00:40:07,430
together like the Illuminati or

942
00:40:11,859 --> 00:40:08,900
something like that a new world order

943
00:40:14,230 --> 00:40:11,869
and and you know the the source that I

944
00:40:15,910 --> 00:40:14,240
go to there's an another sociologist his

945
00:40:18,070 --> 00:40:15,920
name as Bill Tom Hoff and he's been

946
00:40:19,900 --> 00:40:18,080
studying power and power structure and

947
00:40:22,660 --> 00:40:19,910
wealth in the United States for most 50

948
00:40:24,130 --> 00:40:22,670
years and and he bases his conclusions

949
00:40:25,839 --> 00:40:24,140
his findings on research and he says

950
00:40:27,220 --> 00:40:25,849
look you know I don't find evidence for

951
00:40:29,290 --> 00:40:27,230
this yes there's a lot of connections

952
00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:29,300
there's a lot of people that know each

953
00:40:33,010 --> 00:40:31,310
other but the extent to which are these

954
00:40:34,660 --> 00:40:33,020
at least get together and kind of plan

955
00:40:38,140 --> 00:40:34,670
the future of America he doesn't find

956
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:38,150
the evidence for that so I think but you

957
00:40:42,910 --> 00:40:40,010
know nevertheless this is a very popular

958
00:40:44,410 --> 00:40:42,920
topic and it's you know you can search

959
00:40:45,970 --> 00:40:44,420
on the internet for this you to put a

960
00:40:48,220 --> 00:40:45,980
new world order or Illuminati and you'll

961
00:40:50,140 --> 00:40:48,230
get thousands of hits and and you know

962
00:40:53,380 --> 00:40:50,150
people believe a lot of stuff that's on

963
00:40:55,030 --> 00:40:53,390
the internet so to me it's more about

964
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:55,040
kind of the social stuff you know the

965
00:40:58,079 --> 00:40:56,330
stories that we tell each other or

966
00:41:00,820 --> 00:40:58,089
what's in the media that kind of thing

967
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:00,830
yeah I definitely think the you know

968
00:41:05,589 --> 00:41:03,410
Internet has certainly changed the views

969
00:41:09,130 --> 00:41:05,599
of a lot of people um you know I mean

970
00:41:10,870 --> 00:41:09,140
because it's a good example with myself

971
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:10,880
you know I mean I after I have the

972
00:41:14,980 --> 00:41:13,010
sighting that I did you know I started

973
00:41:18,030 --> 00:41:14,990
to do some research online and you know

974
00:41:20,829 --> 00:41:18,040
I found I found some things that were

975
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:20,839
fascinating and and probably accurate

976
00:41:26,650 --> 00:41:24,410
and some things that were totally you

977
00:41:29,890 --> 00:41:26,660
know bizarre that I had to set aside and

978
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:29,900
so I do think that you know people can

979
00:41:34,810 --> 00:41:33,170
buy into a lot more because information

980
00:41:37,660 --> 00:41:34,820
is there whether it's right or wrong

981
00:41:39,730 --> 00:41:37,670
information rights all right you know

982
00:41:42,370 --> 00:41:39,740
really up to them to really look into or

983
00:41:46,599 --> 00:41:42,380
not yeah and I don't know how many

984
00:41:47,859 --> 00:41:46,609
people have been exposed to the ideas

985
00:41:50,230 --> 00:41:47,869
that we're talking about that kind of

986
00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:50,240
what's the threshold for you know really

987
00:41:54,370 --> 00:41:52,160
good evidence and how reliable is it and

988
00:41:55,599 --> 00:41:54,380
how trustworthy is it and you know the

989
00:41:57,609 --> 00:41:55,609
thing about the Internet is you can put

990
00:42:00,420 --> 00:41:57,619
any clin anyone out there and there's no

991
00:42:02,349 --> 00:42:00,430
accountability there's no possibility to

992
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:02,359
challenge it other than just say that's

993
00:42:07,180 --> 00:42:05,210
wrong so you know I consistently tell

994
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:07,190
people look at the research you know

995
00:42:10,570 --> 00:42:09,170
find people that you trust don't just go

996
00:42:12,339 --> 00:42:10,580
to a website I mean you can google

997
00:42:12,810 --> 00:42:12,349
anything but just because it's on Google

998
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:12,820
doesn't me

999
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:14,770
that it's reliable it's valuable those

1000
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:17,890
trustworthy you know the upside of the

1001
00:42:21,090 --> 00:42:19,210
internet I think it's great i mean i

1002
00:42:22,530 --> 00:42:21,100
have friends all over the world I can

1003
00:42:23,970 --> 00:42:22,540
communicate you know I love reading

1004
00:42:26,220 --> 00:42:23,980
stories i love getting all this

1005
00:42:27,090 --> 00:42:26,230
information but at the same time you

1006
00:42:29,850 --> 00:42:27,100
know there's a lot of really bad

1007
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:29,860
information out there too and i think i

1008
00:42:34,290 --> 00:42:32,290
think what would be really helpful for

1009
00:42:36,330 --> 00:42:34,300
everybody especially in a field like

1010
00:42:38,940 --> 00:42:36,340
this is to have that healthy sense of

1011
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:38,950
skepticism I try to encourage people to

1012
00:42:43,770 --> 00:42:41,290
develop you know a critical analytical

1013
00:42:45,570 --> 00:42:43,780
mind and evaluate the evidence where's

1014
00:42:47,910 --> 00:42:45,580
this coming from why is this person

1015
00:42:50,190 --> 00:42:47,920
saying this do they have an agenda where

1016
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:50,200
do they get it has it been vetted I mean

1017
00:42:53,670 --> 00:42:51,610
those are the kinds of questions that I

1018
00:42:56,490 --> 00:42:53,680
think people need to ask and you know

1019
00:42:58,740 --> 00:42:56,500
how cool would it be if we were able to

1020
00:43:00,870 --> 00:42:58,750
take a UFO sighting of some kind and

1021
00:43:02,820 --> 00:43:00,880
really evaluate it like that and fight

1022
00:43:04,770 --> 00:43:02,830
you know could find out what exactly is

1023
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:04,780
going on I mean I think that we can use

1024
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:06,730
the scientific method to our advantage

1025
00:43:12,270 --> 00:43:09,970
and if you were able to gather enough

1026
00:43:14,430 --> 00:43:12,280
evidence to meet that threshold which in

1027
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:14,440
my mind is way beyond a reasonable doubt

1028
00:43:18,150 --> 00:43:16,210
but if you were able to gather enough

1029
00:43:20,310 --> 00:43:18,160
evidence to to meet that threshold then

1030
00:43:22,260 --> 00:43:20,320
Wow that'd be incredible to demonstrate

1031
00:43:25,020 --> 00:43:22,270
that something like you know UFO exists

1032
00:43:27,780 --> 00:43:25,030
or anything like that yeah and then

1033
00:43:30,750 --> 00:43:27,790
there's a part where you know there a

1034
00:43:33,510 --> 00:43:30,760
lot of speculation which I you know sort

1035
00:43:35,550 --> 00:43:33,520
of almost buy into or I think about is a

1036
00:43:39,300 --> 00:43:35,560
possibility and that is that there may

1037
00:43:43,050 --> 00:43:39,310
be some small segment of the government

1038
00:43:44,370 --> 00:43:43,060
that does know or has known that you

1039
00:43:46,740 --> 00:43:44,380
know maybe they don't know exactly what

1040
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:46,750
it is but they there is certainly a lot

1041
00:43:53,190 --> 00:43:50,530
of accounts of some type of cover-up you

1042
00:44:00,620 --> 00:43:53,200
know you think of the japonais Japanese

1043
00:44:03,240 --> 00:44:00,630
pilot the cargo yeah yeah you know and

1044
00:44:04,980 --> 00:44:03,250
there's so much about that that it seems

1045
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:04,990
like that was just well you did see it

1046
00:44:08,100 --> 00:44:06,250
and we're taking the tapes and we're out

1047
00:44:10,500 --> 00:44:08,110
of here you know right seems like

1048
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:10,510
there's a lot of cover up like that what

1049
00:44:14,250 --> 00:44:11,680
you talking about what do you think the

1050
00:44:16,110 --> 00:44:14,260
possibilities of the cover-ups well I

1051
00:44:17,730 --> 00:44:16,120
think we have a fair amount of evidence

1052
00:44:21,300 --> 00:44:17,740
that we know that the government does

1053
00:44:22,980 --> 00:44:21,310
lie I mean you know if you think I like

1054
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:22,990
within the Vietnam War the Gulf of

1055
00:44:26,670 --> 00:44:25,290
Tonkin incident never did didn't happen

1056
00:44:30,270 --> 00:44:26,680
but that was

1057
00:44:31,860 --> 00:44:30,280
one of the you know the straw that broke

1058
00:44:35,130 --> 00:44:31,870
the camel's back which really got us

1059
00:44:37,770 --> 00:44:35,140
into the Vietnam War 911 I remember

1060
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:37,780
hearing you know the when the towers

1061
00:44:43,230 --> 00:44:40,090
collapsed and all of the materials in

1062
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:43,240
the air and the local authorities were

1063
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:44,890
saying that the air is fine it's okay

1064
00:44:48,810 --> 00:44:47,170
and then it came out a couple of years

1065
00:44:50,490 --> 00:44:48,820
later well the font there wasn't fine

1066
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:50,500
and they knew at the time that it wasn't

1067
00:44:54,260 --> 00:44:52,930
fine but they didn't tell people that

1068
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:54,270
because they don't want people to panic

1069
00:45:03,060 --> 00:44:57,010
you know and and there's all kinds of

1070
00:45:05,550 --> 00:45:03,070
you know who was it this most recent NSA

1071
00:45:07,770 --> 00:45:05,560
guy James clapper and he was testifying

1072
00:45:08,700 --> 00:45:07,780
more Congress and you know they one of

1073
00:45:10,140 --> 00:45:08,710
the Congress people i don't remember

1074
00:45:11,790 --> 00:45:10,150
they you know you know I'm saying ask

1075
00:45:13,890 --> 00:45:11,800
him flat out are you collecting data

1076
00:45:15,780 --> 00:45:13,900
well he gave some answer and then he

1077
00:45:18,810 --> 00:45:15,790
plays later basically said well that

1078
00:45:20,940 --> 00:45:18,820
wasn't really true well you know gee

1079
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:20,950
you're under you know oh that Congress

1080
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:22,930
and you're basically nothing happens yes

1081
00:45:27,810 --> 00:45:25,330
nothing happens right so so yeah I mean

1082
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:27,820
I think it's pretty clear that you know

1083
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:29,650
how much can we trust the government you

1084
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:32,290
know I don't know I think it's like with

1085
00:45:35,700 --> 00:45:33,970
them I have a real healthy skepticism

1086
00:45:37,170 --> 00:45:35,710
when they tell me things because I have

1087
00:45:39,540 --> 00:45:37,180
evidence that they haven't been truthful

1088
00:45:41,370 --> 00:45:39,550
in the past um and that's you know

1089
00:45:43,890 --> 00:45:41,380
that's pretty clear evidence that you

1090
00:45:45,300 --> 00:45:43,900
can you can obtain and the same thing I

1091
00:45:47,130 --> 00:45:45,310
mean I certainly heard all the reports

1092
00:45:48,810 --> 00:45:47,140
about a lot of things that go missing or

1093
00:45:51,330 --> 00:45:48,820
that you know people say don't tell

1094
00:45:53,610 --> 00:45:51,340
anybody about this I don't know why

1095
00:45:55,860 --> 00:45:53,620
they're telling them not to say

1096
00:45:58,590 --> 00:45:55,870
something about it but I think there's

1097
00:46:01,710 --> 00:45:58,600
clearly enough evidence of people and

1098
00:46:03,630 --> 00:46:01,720
having you know documentation that you

1099
00:46:06,420 --> 00:46:03,640
know that they weren't supposed to say

1100
00:46:09,270 --> 00:46:06,430
anything somebody having told them that

1101
00:46:11,460 --> 00:46:09,280
but as to why they did it again you know

1102
00:46:14,460 --> 00:46:11,470
that's what's unknown and is there a

1103
00:46:16,530 --> 00:46:14,470
government conspiracy you know I think

1104
00:46:18,930 --> 00:46:16,540
the government keeps a lot of Secrets I

1105
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:18,940
think that's you know whatever part of

1106
00:46:25,290 --> 00:46:22,090
their job but what secrets are keeping

1107
00:46:28,230 --> 00:46:25,300
you know I don't know that's that I have

1108
00:46:30,540 --> 00:46:28,240
this fantasy that the you know the day I

1109
00:46:32,220 --> 00:46:30,550
die and and you know I'm not sure he's

1110
00:46:34,530 --> 00:46:32,230
lucky little happen but my fantasy is

1111
00:46:36,090 --> 00:46:34,540
I'll have a chance to to ask the good

1112
00:46:39,030 --> 00:46:36,100
Lord some questions like who really

1113
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:39,040
killed JFK and you know are there early

1114
00:46:42,430 --> 00:46:39,530
really

1115
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:42,440
aliens and you because I don't

1116
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:43,370
know where else to get that information

1117
00:46:46,870 --> 00:46:45,410
right i mean it's like you can't

1118
00:46:48,850 --> 00:46:46,880
petition the government i mean you can

1119
00:46:49,690 --> 00:46:48,860
do a Freedom of Information Act but

1120
00:46:51,100 --> 00:46:49,700
they're not only going to give you

1121
00:46:53,620 --> 00:46:51,110
certain information live it's going to

1122
00:46:56,830 --> 00:46:53,630
be redacted so so again for me it comes

1123
00:46:58,810 --> 00:46:56,840
down to you know I need the evidence I I

1124
00:47:00,370 --> 00:46:58,820
wouldn't put it past the government but

1125
00:47:01,750 --> 00:47:00,380
at the same time I hear people say how

1126
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:01,760
could they ever keep that a secret they

1127
00:47:05,410 --> 00:47:03,890
can't a lot of things secret but at the

1128
00:47:07,260 --> 00:47:05,420
same time they do keep a lot of things

1129
00:47:09,850 --> 00:47:07,270
oh yeah no all right i mean look like

1130
00:47:11,580 --> 00:47:09,860
Edward Snowden we know released a lot of

1131
00:47:13,810 --> 00:47:11,590
things that they were keeping secrets no

1132
00:47:16,420 --> 00:47:13,820
yeah and it keeps coming up that he's

1133
00:47:18,550 --> 00:47:16,430
hiding I mean he's coming forth with the

1134
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:18,560
UFO stuff which is I don't think that's

1135
00:47:25,170 --> 00:47:21,530
going to happen one of the one of the

1136
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:25,180
questions on the on the message board is

1137
00:47:33,580 --> 00:47:27,890
do do you think the government is

1138
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:33,590
sitting on UFO information yes or no ha

1139
00:47:38,650 --> 00:47:35,810
I don't know that I could be unequivocal

1140
00:47:42,810 --> 00:47:38,660
either yes or no again I would have to

1141
00:47:48,550 --> 00:47:45,070
well let's just say someone gave you a

1142
00:47:52,090 --> 00:47:48,560
hundred bucks to bet if you were gonna

1143
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:52,100
bet no or yes which would you back I'm

1144
00:47:56,530 --> 00:47:53,690
really putting you on the spot that's

1145
00:48:01,300 --> 00:47:56,540
okay um i would have to bet no uh-huh

1146
00:48:04,990 --> 00:48:01,310
okay yeah because I I would rather err

1147
00:48:07,690 --> 00:48:05,000
on the side of caution I see you know

1148
00:48:09,790 --> 00:48:07,700
I'm saying cuz I don't like to make

1149
00:48:12,100 --> 00:48:09,800
claims that I don't have that I'm not

1150
00:48:15,970 --> 00:48:12,110
confident about I don't like to make

1151
00:48:18,190 --> 00:48:15,980
claims or even suggest something that I

1152
00:48:20,830 --> 00:48:18,200
really don't have evidence for so would

1153
00:48:22,900 --> 00:48:20,840
much rather say no and be wrong then say

1154
00:48:24,940 --> 00:48:22,910
yes and be wrong well then this will

1155
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:24,950
lead me to asking this question so what

1156
00:48:29,050 --> 00:48:27,530
do you think happened at Roswell any

1157
00:48:32,170 --> 00:48:29,060
guesses there have you looked into

1158
00:48:35,710 --> 00:48:32,180
Roswell oh yeah a lot right i mean i

1159
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:35,720
think it's fascinating I certainly you

1160
00:48:40,270 --> 00:48:38,450
know that's one of those ones that okay

1161
00:48:41,260 --> 00:48:40,280
the evidence that I've seen and granted

1162
00:48:42,850 --> 00:48:41,270
you know i'm not i don't have any

1163
00:48:44,050 --> 00:48:42,860
special access and i'm sure there's a

1164
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:44,060
lot of people have better evidence that

1165
00:48:49,210 --> 00:48:46,490
i do I certainly don't believe it was a

1166
00:48:51,010 --> 00:48:49,220
weather balloon i mean i think that the

1167
00:48:52,630 --> 00:48:51,020
initial reports about it being something

1168
00:48:53,380 --> 00:48:52,640
you know flying's I mean the flying

1169
00:48:55,110 --> 00:48:53,390
saucer like

1170
00:48:57,700 --> 00:48:55,120
I understand why they called it that but

1171
00:49:00,040 --> 00:48:57,710
but I think there was something there

1172
00:49:01,810 --> 00:49:00,050
that I don't I don't certainly don't

1173
00:49:04,330 --> 00:49:01,820
believe was a weather balloon I'm not

1174
00:49:06,100 --> 00:49:04,340
sure what it was but I don't believe the

1175
00:49:08,170 --> 00:49:06,110
government story I think that's pretty

1176
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:08,180
far-fetched and I think that that's been

1177
00:49:12,970 --> 00:49:09,650
pretty well established by a lot of

1178
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:12,980
other people and mainly because I think

1179
00:49:17,950 --> 00:49:15,890
at the time you know the the initial

1180
00:49:21,070 --> 00:49:17,960
report I think it was made out of out of

1181
00:49:22,450 --> 00:49:21,080
sheer innocence meet the guy hey that's

1182
00:49:24,940 --> 00:49:22,460
what happened let's report it you know

1183
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:24,950
UFOs are going around and so I have a

1184
00:49:28,870 --> 00:49:26,930
much much greater tendency to believe

1185
00:49:30,490 --> 00:49:28,880
the initial report then the government

1186
00:49:32,710 --> 00:49:30,500
coming out later and say oh no no no

1187
00:49:34,720 --> 00:49:32,720
that was wrong that was wrong that's

1188
00:49:36,790 --> 00:49:34,730
about all I can say I mean yet I love

1189
00:49:38,710 --> 00:49:36,800
for there to be a lean hidden or a

1190
00:49:40,540 --> 00:49:38,720
hidden away at wright-patterson yeah

1191
00:49:43,450 --> 00:49:40,550
that'd be really cool you know but again

1192
00:49:45,910 --> 00:49:43,460
I need to see them well you know the

1193
00:49:48,790 --> 00:49:45,920
fact that I think it's rather humorous

1194
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:48,800
that the Air Force comes forward and

1195
00:49:55,240 --> 00:49:51,290
says that oh those weren't aliens those

1196
00:49:58,750 --> 00:49:55,250
were crash test dummies right right

1197
00:50:01,540 --> 00:49:58,760
right 44 parachuting in an eye out it

1198
00:50:04,270 --> 00:50:01,550
yes and those hadn't even come out till

1199
00:50:06,100 --> 00:50:04,280
I think it was five years later or

1200
00:50:08,740 --> 00:50:06,110
something like that's right I mean I

1201
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:08,750
mean that wasn't it that was a bold lie

1202
00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:11,810
right there absolutely yeah yeah that's

1203
00:50:14,530 --> 00:50:13,250
one of those I'm talking about they make

1204
00:50:17,020 --> 00:50:14,540
they say something and then you find out

1205
00:50:18,340 --> 00:50:17,030
documentation that clearly demonstrate

1206
00:50:19,780 --> 00:50:18,350
so they weren't telling you the true but

1207
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:19,790
that to me is evidence that the

1208
00:50:24,100 --> 00:50:21,650
government doesn't tell us what's going

1209
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:24,110
on right hey so what's really happening

1210
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:25,490
we don't know but at least we know that

1211
00:50:29,500 --> 00:50:27,530
they're not being truthful with us and

1212
00:50:33,340 --> 00:50:29,510
with your background what what would you

1213
00:50:35,050 --> 00:50:33,350
think if you let's just say you

1214
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:35,060
controlled the United States government

1215
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:37,850
it was in your lap and you had a

1216
00:50:42,940 --> 00:50:39,770
curiosity about UFOs and you wanted to

1217
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:42,950
find out if there is really something

1218
00:50:49,030 --> 00:50:46,610
you know about it that is true or if

1219
00:50:51,130 --> 00:50:49,040
it's known in the government or what

1220
00:50:54,580 --> 00:50:51,140
would you do to explore it what would

1221
00:50:58,690 --> 00:50:54,590
your ideas be to explore that whole the

1222
00:51:00,850 --> 00:50:58,700
whole issue yeah i mean my knowledge of

1223
00:51:03,190 --> 00:51:00,860
the federal government is is is limited

1224
00:51:04,420 --> 00:51:03,200
i mean i know they have okay gads scads

1225
00:51:06,370 --> 00:51:04,430
of departments I guess what I'm trying

1226
00:51:06,790 --> 00:51:06,380
to get at so I don't know the exact

1227
00:51:08,020 --> 00:51:06,800
depart

1228
00:51:11,110 --> 00:51:08,030
when I would go to I probably go to the

1229
00:51:15,610 --> 00:51:11,120
military first and ask some questions

1230
00:51:17,950 --> 00:51:15,620
and you know ask for i would love to see

1231
00:51:20,620 --> 00:51:17,960
all the files that people have asked for

1232
00:51:22,690 --> 00:51:20,630
that have been redacted for all I mean

1233
00:51:24,460 --> 00:51:22,700
for all kinds of things actually fo but

1234
00:51:27,070 --> 00:51:24,470
um I think that would probably be the

1235
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:27,080
place i would start I mean I I'm fairly

1236
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:29,090
confident they have a lot of information

1237
00:51:33,010 --> 00:51:30,410
about a lot of things that we don't know

1238
00:51:36,460 --> 00:51:33,020
about but yeah I would I would probably

1239
00:51:37,900 --> 00:51:36,470
start with the military because I would

1240
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:37,910
suspect that they would be the ones that

1241
00:51:42,850 --> 00:51:40,850
would would have been charged with you

1242
00:51:43,930 --> 00:51:42,860
know if something did happen and you

1243
00:51:46,630 --> 00:51:43,940
know the whole thing about reverse

1244
00:51:49,390 --> 00:51:46,640
engineering I mean I know that the

1245
00:51:50,710 --> 00:51:49,400
government the military rather has you

1246
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:50,720
know some of the best technological

1247
00:51:55,750 --> 00:51:53,450
equipment on the planet so chances are

1248
00:51:57,070 --> 00:51:55,760
if anything was found it probably got

1249
00:51:58,900 --> 00:51:57,080
funneled to them right i mean because

1250
00:52:01,510 --> 00:51:58,910
we're always trying to figure out ways

1251
00:52:04,030 --> 00:52:01,520
to make better weapons so so that's

1252
00:52:06,190 --> 00:52:04,040
probably where I would start if I could

1253
00:52:07,900 --> 00:52:06,200
get through all of the stuff you if you

1254
00:52:09,850 --> 00:52:07,910
kind of saying I had a magic wand and I

1255
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:09,860
could you know get people to tell me

1256
00:52:15,250 --> 00:52:12,290
what was really going on yeah how would

1257
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:15,260
you approach like to say if you wanted

1258
00:52:22,300 --> 00:52:18,770
to take this seriously as a scientist

1259
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:22,310
how would you approach trying to like to

1260
00:52:29,350 --> 00:52:26,810
say look at a sighting and research it

1261
00:52:31,690 --> 00:52:29,360
how would you approach that well the

1262
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:31,700
first thing I mean the going back to set

1263
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:33,770
cassettes comment if we had some really

1264
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:35,810
tangible physical evidence you know

1265
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:39,170
that's the the main thing you know the

1266
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:41,330
closest i can think of are the implants

1267
00:52:45,190 --> 00:52:43,370
or the you know alleged implants that

1268
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:45,200
what is it as a podiatrist somewhere i

1269
00:52:51,490 --> 00:52:47,810
think in George who's them here yeah

1270
00:52:52,630 --> 00:52:51,500
okay yeah so um you know subjected I

1271
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:52,640
know this have been subjected to

1272
00:52:55,210 --> 00:52:53,930
different kinds of tests and

1273
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:55,220
occasionally they come up and say well

1274
00:52:59,020 --> 00:52:57,410
we're not sure what it is okay well

1275
00:53:01,360 --> 00:52:59,030
that's that's interesting we don't know

1276
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:01,370
what it is and clearly the the research

1277
00:53:03,610 --> 00:53:02,930
scientists don't know what it is you

1278
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:03,620
know does that mean it's

1279
00:53:08,350 --> 00:53:05,450
extraterrestrial no it just means we

1280
00:53:09,970 --> 00:53:08,360
don't know what it is so for me and

1281
00:53:13,150 --> 00:53:09,980
again this goes back to your point about

1282
00:53:16,090 --> 00:53:13,160
how fleeting it is if there was some way

1283
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:16,100
we could get that kind of evidence I'll

1284
00:53:19,690 --> 00:53:18,050
give you another example i also like

1285
00:53:20,740 --> 00:53:19,700
Bigfoot stuff i think that's really

1286
00:53:21,910 --> 00:53:20,750
interesting and you

1287
00:53:23,470 --> 00:53:21,920
these people these people who claim that

1288
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:23,480
they say that some Bigfoot's are

1289
00:53:27,340 --> 00:53:25,130
habituated meaning that they can like

1290
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:27,350
feed them and it's kind of like a pet

1291
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:28,970
relieve some food out and it comes up

1292
00:53:31,990 --> 00:53:29,930
and you have some kind of interaction

1293
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:32,000
with them okay well why don't you grab

1294
00:53:35,410 --> 00:53:34,370
their hair or why don't you you know we

1295
00:53:37,750 --> 00:53:35,420
don't want to do that because we don't

1296
00:53:39,700 --> 00:53:37,760
want to disturb their lifestyle okay to

1297
00:53:41,470 --> 00:53:39,710
me that's just saying you know I don't

1298
00:53:43,750 --> 00:53:41,480
have any evidence okay then why are you

1299
00:53:46,300 --> 00:53:43,760
even talking about it but that's the

1300
00:53:48,510 --> 00:53:46,310
kind of stuff that that in my mind again

1301
00:53:51,550 --> 00:53:48,520
you know would would be sort of

1302
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:51,560
incontrovertible if we clearly like the

1303
00:53:56,830 --> 00:53:55,010
the metal that allegedly was at Roswell

1304
00:53:59,890 --> 00:53:56,840
that you can crumple up and let go a

1305
00:54:01,660 --> 00:53:59,900
return to shape you know that would be

1306
00:54:03,130 --> 00:54:01,670
something I'd ask if i was you know if I

1307
00:54:04,150 --> 00:54:03,140
have if I was in that position of the

1308
00:54:06,310 --> 00:54:04,160
government what happened to that where'd

1309
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:06,320
it go let me see it you know I mean I

1310
00:54:09,070 --> 00:54:07,850
want to throw it to some of my scientist

1311
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:09,080
friends and see what they think about it

1312
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:11,210
oh we would all love to get our hands on

1313
00:54:16,990 --> 00:54:15,410
that stuff yeah one more question then

1314
00:54:19,900 --> 00:54:17,000
we're just about out of time here

1315
00:54:22,870 --> 00:54:19,910
already first one more question on the

1316
00:54:29,020 --> 00:54:22,880
message board and that is what do you

1317
00:54:30,220 --> 00:54:29,030
think about recall under hypnosis you

1318
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:30,230
know I think that's again one of those

1319
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:33,770
things that I don't think it's very well

1320
00:54:41,530 --> 00:54:35,930
understood I think there are claims made

1321
00:54:43,060 --> 00:54:41,540
about it being an accurate reflection or

1322
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:43,070
an accurate accurate recollection of

1323
00:54:47,470 --> 00:54:45,170
something that happened but one more

1324
00:54:50,500 --> 00:54:47,480
time and unless we have some something

1325
00:54:53,620 --> 00:54:50,510
external to the individual to verify the

1326
00:54:55,720 --> 00:54:53,630
account then we can't go beyond saying

1327
00:54:57,910 --> 00:54:55,730
this is what the individual saw this is

1328
00:54:59,650 --> 00:54:57,920
what the individual experience but how

1329
00:55:02,350 --> 00:54:59,660
do we account for that experience if we

1330
00:55:04,690 --> 00:55:02,360
don't have the very thing that the

1331
00:55:07,660 --> 00:55:04,700
person saw and we can't evaluate that

1332
00:55:08,950 --> 00:55:07,670
then we have to just default to well

1333
00:55:11,590 --> 00:55:08,960
that's what they saw we don't know why

1334
00:55:12,700 --> 00:55:11,600
they saw it we can't explain it so it

1335
00:55:14,650 --> 00:55:12,710
goes back to what we were saying earlier

1336
00:55:17,230 --> 00:55:14,660
I wouldn't give it any more credence

1337
00:55:19,540 --> 00:55:17,240
than I would somebody making a report

1338
00:55:21,430 --> 00:55:19,550
while they're not under hypnosis it's

1339
00:55:25,030 --> 00:55:21,440
not like hypnosis has some special

1340
00:55:27,090 --> 00:55:25,040
ability to make contact with the

1341
00:55:31,210 --> 00:55:27,100
external environment that regular

1342
00:55:33,790 --> 00:55:31,220
experience doesn't have and again as to

1343
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:33,800
what accounts for those experiences is

1344
00:55:36,660 --> 00:55:34,130
something

1345
00:55:39,730 --> 00:55:36,670
that I think is is not fully understood

1346
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:39,740
and I don't even know that you know

1347
00:55:43,390 --> 00:55:41,690
psychiatrists or psychoanalysts or

1348
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:43,400
whomever would would would be able to

1349
00:55:47,799 --> 00:55:46,130
fully understand that but to me it's

1350
00:55:49,630 --> 00:55:47,809
it's one more time it's it's

1351
00:55:53,079 --> 00:55:49,640
unfortunately in that insufficient

1352
00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:53,089
evidence box mm-hmm that makes sense

1353
00:55:59,769 --> 00:55:57,170
yeah yeah and you know we always talk a

1354
00:56:02,440 --> 00:55:59,779
whole lot in this field about disclosure

1355
00:56:05,740 --> 00:56:02,450
if you think if you think the government

1356
00:56:07,660 --> 00:56:05,750
did no I personally don't think they

1357
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:07,670
would ever disclose it but what do you

1358
00:56:12,339 --> 00:56:10,130
think about that I don't think they

1359
00:56:14,289 --> 00:56:12,349
would either yeah I think it would take

1360
00:56:17,559 --> 00:56:14,299
an Edward Snowden or you know somebody

1361
00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:17,569
like that to do that and you know I mean

1362
00:56:21,130 --> 00:56:19,730
again if somebody not just released

1363
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:21,140
documents but if they were able to get

1364
00:56:24,549 --> 00:56:22,970
at their hand on something that you know

1365
00:56:26,170 --> 00:56:24,559
the government may or may not have and

1366
00:56:28,839 --> 00:56:26,180
bring that that would that would be

1367
00:56:30,970 --> 00:56:28,849
really cool but yeah I don't I don't see

1368
00:56:34,599 --> 00:56:30,980
any reason I think the government only

1369
00:56:36,940 --> 00:56:34,609
releases information either unexpectedly

1370
00:56:38,859 --> 00:56:36,950
you know through leaks or if they're

1371
00:56:40,210 --> 00:56:38,869
really if their back is really against

1372
00:56:42,670 --> 00:56:40,220
the wall and then they're gonna try to

1373
00:56:44,859 --> 00:56:42,680
prevaricate and you know just release

1374
00:56:46,779 --> 00:56:44,869
different you know minimal minimal

1375
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:46,789
amount of information possible so I

1376
00:56:50,950 --> 00:56:48,410
don't have a lot of faith in that either

1377
00:56:53,890 --> 00:56:50,960
yeah okay well we're just about ready to

1378
00:56:56,589 --> 00:56:53,900
wrap it up but ok one more question if

1379
00:56:58,900 --> 00:56:56,599
someone out there is you know we had a

1380
00:57:00,730 --> 00:56:58,910
couple of nice comments on the chat

1381
00:57:02,230 --> 00:57:00,740
board if someone's out there and they

1382
00:57:04,240 --> 00:57:02,240
actually want to communicate with you

1383
00:57:06,730 --> 00:57:04,250
about this topic is that a Potter

1384
00:57:07,839 --> 00:57:06,740
ability absolutely i'd be happy to and

1385
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:07,849
how would how would they go about

1386
00:57:13,980 --> 00:57:11,210
finding you um my email address is just

1387
00:57:16,870 --> 00:57:13,990
john e glass all lowercase @ yahoo.com

1388
00:57:19,450 --> 00:57:16,880
all right well hey John thank you so

1389
00:57:21,759 --> 00:57:19,460
much for coming on bail I really enjoyed

1390
00:57:23,829 --> 00:57:21,769
it was great and make smart I did too

1391
00:57:25,329 --> 00:57:23,839
it's always good to have someone outside

1392
00:57:27,549 --> 00:57:25,339
of the field you know give their

1393
00:57:30,249 --> 00:57:27,559
opinions it's it's a it's always

1394
00:57:32,859 --> 00:57:30,259
fascinating to me and your thing yeah

1395
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:32,869
alright so thanks a lot okay you bet

1396
00:57:37,660 --> 00:57:35,210
alright so that's it for the show today

1397
00:57:39,970 --> 00:57:37,670
if you missed any part of the show you

1398
00:57:41,710 --> 00:57:39,980
can catch it as a podcast and a whole

1399
00:57:45,579 --> 00:57:41,720
bunch of other free podcasts on our

1400
00:57:47,290 --> 00:57:45,589
website which is podcast UFO calm you

1401
00:57:49,510 --> 00:57:47,300
can also check out our links

1402
00:57:51,580 --> 00:57:49,520
stories and our show notes as well as

1403
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:51,590
joining the conversation in our forums

1404
00:57:56,770 --> 00:57:53,810
well I want to give a quick shout out to

1405
00:57:58,740 --> 00:57:56,780
a fan named Donna it's the most bizarre

1406
00:58:01,660 --> 00:57:58,750
thing I couldn't believe it we started

1407
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:01,670
she found me on Facebook she found me

1408
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:04,610
through the podcast website as well she

1409
00:58:11,050 --> 00:58:08,570
is into UFOs big time and turns out we

1410
00:58:14,830 --> 00:58:11,060
were born in the exact same hour in the

1411
00:58:17,500 --> 00:58:14,840
exact same town both born in Boston at

1412
00:58:21,790 --> 00:58:17,510
the same exact time in the same hour and

1413
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:21,800
I I think that is really bizarre and we

1414
00:58:27,850 --> 00:58:23,450
were abducted at the same time to I'm

1415
00:58:29,710 --> 00:58:27,860
just kidding anyway maybe separated

1416
00:58:31,420 --> 00:58:29,720
twins i'm not sure but i want to thank

1417
00:58:34,690 --> 00:58:31,430
everyone for helping out with the show

1418
00:58:37,450 --> 00:58:34,700
today Keith Rowland the producer for

1419
00:58:40,270 --> 00:58:37,460
dark merda radio network Andy Fleming

1420
00:58:42,610 --> 00:58:40,280
for the astronomy news Kerry Lloyd White

1421
00:58:45,310 --> 00:58:42,620
House for the music Peggy shining for

1422
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:45,320
managing our facebook page and remember

1423
00:58:49,450 --> 00:58:46,970
to Like us on Facebook for all the

1424
00:58:51,460 --> 00:58:49,460
latest news you can check us out live

1425
00:58:53,470 --> 00:58:51,470
right here at the Dark Matter radio

1426
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:53,480
network every wednesday at eight pm

1427
00:58:57,850 --> 00:58:55,730
eastern standard time and don't forget

1428
00:59:02,380 --> 00:58:57,860
to jump into the chat room at podcast